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A practical conversation
Myrna Shure: Let me start off by asking you, is divorce always a bad thing for a family?
Eileen Bazelon: Not necessarily. Sometimes divorce is the only course of action in a bad marriage. If there is domestic violence, enormous tension, infidelity, daily arguments, a poor home environment, then divorce can be a very good thing.
MS: Divorce is certainly a significant event in the lives of the children involved. Are boys and girls affected in the same way?
EB: No. Girls often do much better after a separation and divorce because they usually adjust more easily by developing a close bond with their mothers. Girls tend to recover from a divorce within six months to a year, whereas boys can take up to three to six years to fully recover.
MS: What types of effects can this lengthy recovery period have on boys?
EB: Unfortunately, boys often have behavioral problems, difficulty in school and difficulty with peers. Sometimes they bully others or get into fights, and other times their academic performance plummets.
MS: Research shows that such behavior can be indicative of more serious problems further down the road, like violence and substance abuse. This is something we should really pay extra-special attention to.
EB: I agree. Such behavioral problems following a divorce do not necessarily predict violent behavior as adults. However, it is something for parents to watch out for.
MS: Given the damaging effects of divorce on children, is it better for the parents of a tension-filled house to get divorced, or is it better for them to try to stay together for the sake of the children?
EB: I don't think there is any way to know exactly. Unless there are very serious problems, like domestic violence, most parents should probably undergo counseling or a period of mediation before making the decision to separate and/or divorce.
MS: Judith Wallerstein is famous for her research on divorce. Do you know what she says about this matter?
EB: Yes. Her contention is that in situations where the marriage is very bad and there is a great deal of conflict, it makes the most sense for the parents to divorce. However, in situations where there is very little conflict and one partner is simply leaving for the sake of self-fulfillment or self-actualization, then a divorce can have very negative effects on the children.
Donald Bersoff: Whether the parents decide to get a divorce or not, it is extremely important to involve the children in what's going on. Keeping everything a secret, as if divorce were a topic that is not be discussed, can have harmful effects on children.
MS: I think you raise an important point, Don. Parents should involve their children in the discussion. But what does that mean? How honest should parents be with their kids?
EB: I think that there are some things you can tell your children and some things you cannot. It probably is not prudent to tell a child intimate details about the marital relationship. At the same time, once the tension or the conflict of a failing marriage becomes obvious, it is very important that the parents explain to their child that there are problems and that they are working to correct them.
MS: What do you think about the issue of joint custody? Is that a good idea?
EB: It depends. Studies and experience show that if both parents want joint custody, it can work out really well. But it isn't something that a court should force parents into. Joint custody requires a great deal of work and cooperation, and most people are not capable of that level of cooperation for a long time after a divorce. In addition, the living circumstances of the parents have to be particularly felicitous in order for joint custody to work. Joint custody parents will have to live near each other, within the same school district if their children are of school age. It's a risky business. Still, it can work wonderfully well if parents are willing to work at it.
MS: If parents opt not to have joint custody, and the child must live with one parent or the other, how should the issue of custody be decided? Don, should the children be involved in the decision of where they are going to live?
DB: I think that involving the children in this decision is very important. When the state gets involved, the judge often makes a custody decision that is based on what we call "the best interests standard," but I would bet that neither lawyers, judges nor parents could define what that means. The standard should take into account the child's best interests, but basically it allows the judge to decide for the child what he or she thinks the child needs. I would like to see the mental health profession and the legal system establish a greater evaluation of the child's preferences, beyond simply compelling a child to answer: "Which parent do you want to live with?"
MS: Eileen, what do you think?
EB: I wouldn't disagree, except to say that the child's age and developmental stage should also be taken into consideration. In fact, 86% of custody cases are determined without any kind of contest. So when we talk about custody disputes, we are only talking about 10 to 14% of the cases. In these cases, I would agree that the children should be involved in the discussion. But perhaps they should be involved in an indirect, subtle, delicate way. And with regard to teenagers, their feelings should definitely be considered in deciding custody.
MS: We have Jean on the line from Devon. Her parents postponed divorce several years for the sake of the children. Maybe Jean can add something to this conversation.
Jean: My parents were married for 25 years before they actually got divorced. They first discussed it when I was about 10 years old, but they didn't go through with it until I was 21. People often talk about staying together for the sake of the kids. But I think that with my parents, it wasn't so much a matter of staying together for the kids, as staying together because of the kids. My siblings and I were a common bond for my parents at a time when they didn't have much else in common. There were five of us, so we were the central focus of their lives. It was easy for them to lose the personal priorities of their relationship in the chaos and excitement of five kids. When my parents finally went through with the divorce, I was older and I had seen a lot. I had watched them do things to each other that reflected the tension between them. I almost wished that they had done it ten years earlier.
MS: How did you feel about it when you were 10?
Jean: I didn't think they wanted me to know about it then.
MS: But you did know about it.
Jean: They discussed it, but not with the children. I still knew. Growing up, it was very clear to me that they loved us like crazy, but they really didn't love each other.
MS: That kind of relates to Don's earlier point about involving the children in the conversation. It must have been a real shock to you to find out that things weren't what you thought they were.
Jean: I wasn't so much shocked as I was relieved. Still, I was also really disappointed because it changed my whole perspective on home.
EB: I sense that if your parents were here, they would say that they felt that they were doing the best they could at the time and that family was the most important thing to them. It's hard to fault them for that.
Jean: I don't. And you're right; they would say that. They are now very open and willing to talk about their feelings and our feelings. If they were here, they would say that everybody did the best they could, even though sometimes their best wasn't very good.
MS: Thank you so much for your call. This has been a stimulating and hopefully helpful conversation. At the very least, we have raised issues that will get people thinking about children, divorce and custody issues in a new way. If you have any questions or comments about today's show, you can find us on the WHYY web site at: http://whyy.org/91FM/TalkingAboutKids.html.
by Myrna Shure, Ph.D.
This interview aired in March on 91FM's own TALKING ABOUT KIDS WITH DR. MYRNA SHURE. It was edited for print by Chris Lilienthal and Evelyn Tu.
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